Great Ideas

I love getting around leaders who make me think.  Yesterday I had the opportunity to be at the North Point staff meeting where Reggie Joiner spoke. 

After serving at North Point for over 10 years, Reggie left the staff there to devote all of his time to ReThink.  As part of that move, he's traveled the country meeting church leaders.  Yesterday, he shared some of his learnings.  Here are a few highlights that got me thinking:

• People who are anti-mega church tend to be the people who already go to church.  That hit me pretty hard.  Obviously, large churches do a pretty good job of attracting unchurched people.  Church people find large churches too big.  I'll chew on that one awhile.

• Maybe the job of the communicator is not to resolve tension, but to create it so that people leave having to wrestle with what was said.  I love that!  I think that happens a bit already in good preaching, but what would happen if we made that a goal?  In family ministry, we say that what happens at home is as or more important than what happens at church.  Maybe that's true of big church (when adults gather) too.  

• You can tell people they are significant, but until you give them something significant to do, they won't feel significant. Okay, that's just way too true. It made me think - maybe the problem of burnout in churches is not that we have given people too much to do, maybe it's that we've given people too many insignificant things to do. 

What do you think?  Do we need to create more tension - more wrestling, in preaching?  Do we ask people to do things that are not really significant?  Is there anything wrong with a large church?

PS. If you want more stuff like this, you might want to get down to this conference where this kind of sharp thinking will be all over the place.

Comments

[Pat]

That significance point really hit hard. Having gone from a position where I felt I was doing something significant, to a place where nothing I do seems significant, is a tough position to be.

[Peter P]

In response to #1, the people who are anti-mega church, in my experience, tend to be the people who see (or think) that mega churches fail to effectively disciple people.

Unchurched people wouldn't recognize this or even know that it was something to think about.

'The church of Oprah' is pretty good at attracting people too. That doesn't mean it's good!

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

Pat...great point, and thanks for your honesty. I'd love to ask this question though: Does not holding a position of "significance" (which most of us honestly don't) naturally mean that God can't do anything significant through you. The scripture is full of stories of shepherds, and cup-bearers and fishermen who went on to become the most influential leaders in history.

Peter, man...you have played into my worst fears of stereotyping about large churches. Are you saying that big = shallow? I would say that there are many small churches I've visited where people aren't deep or influential and many large churches I've visited where people are more than deep.

[Nick Blevins]

In postmodern discussions, of which I'm not a huge part of, the belief is that people have gone from wanting all the right answers to instead wanting more questions. In other words, they like for things to be somewhat unresolved more than ever before. Creating tension and leaving people with it would appeal to that desire if that's really what people are looking for.

I definitely think creating tension is key, but I'm not sold on the idea that the communicator shouldn't resolve it sometimes as well. A good mix is probably best.

I agree with the significance statement but I think the real key is feeling that they are a part of something significant. Every significant thing has seemingly insignificant jobs within it. The key is helping people realize how important those seemingly insignificant roles really are (vision) while providing opportunities for them to do more.

Oh... and I think most anti-megachurch stereotypes are stupid. As with most stereotypes, some are true, but to lump all mega-churches together under certain headings is foolish. And, for every 1 megachurch that has some problem, you can find 100+ small churches with the same proble, you just don't hear about it.

But I don't really have strong opinions :)

[Peter P]

Yeah, I thought you wanted someone to play into that! (that's why I said 'think')

I wouldn't say that big=shallow but I'm also not certain that deep=right.

I've met a lot of people who are very 'deep'. Great thinkers, great theologians, people who know all the answers etc but who don't actually practice what they can teach.

What I've never seen from a mega-church, and this may just be that I haven't seen it but it's there, is real community, real discipleship.

I know of too many people who drive hours to 'go to church' and know no-one in their own town who they can share fellowship with.

True, many (if not most) 'small' churches don't get things right but I've seen more small churches creating community and making disciples who make disciples than I have mega churches.

This was highlighted to be by Bills Hybels when he announced that they 'got it wrong': http://juan.hpbcglobal.org/2007/11/willow-creek-leadership-admits-we-got.html

The question has to be asked, why are mega churches more successful at drawing people in and are they actually successfully making Christ-followers or are they just making pastor-followers?

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

Peter...I bit. Good questions. I totally agree that application is the difference.

I guess my next question would be, have you ever been to a mega church? Hung out with people. Gotten to know them? I've been to several. The relationships run deep, deeper than in many small churches where friendship can become a substitute for following Christ.

It's also a shame to me that people quote Hybels so much on that one point. Like people were waiting for him or someone big to fail. There are tens of thousands of people in a growing relationship with Jesus and making a real impact on the kingdom because of large churches. I just hope we can celebrate that.

[Pat]

Carey,

I think from the experience that I've had with both small and large churches is that relationship CAN happen, though that isn't to say that either situation CAUSES relationships to happen.

My opinion is that a large chunk of it is left up to a) the church leadership, in its intentionality to help people get into real relationships, and b) the people in the church environment.

Some people go to larger churches to "get lost." Not everyone (off the bat) wants to be in relationship. I know of several people through conversations who have attended large churches so that they wouldn't have to engage too deeply personally right off the bat. These are both church people and unchurched people.

Recently I started attending a very small church, with about 30-40 people each Sunday. I've been going for a little under two months, and I really only know the pastor (who is a friend from several years ago). They don't focus on doing community groups, or programs of any kind… it's a challenge to engage with others when there isn't avenues outside of Sunday morning to meet with others. On the other hand, this church does a lot of incredible work in the community working with those in need, which is where their community is developed. I hope to soon start helping out so I can work on building those relationships, but time isn't on my side at the moment.

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

Pat...you make a great point. Size doesn't determine relationship, people and leadership do. I think that functions irrespective of size. Thanks!

[Peter P]

I agree, we should celebrate the real good stuff that is happening in mega-churches, unfortunately it rarely comes out.

For me, this may be a part of the problem - maybe the mega-churches are not shouting loud enough about these things - which may be why so many people are 'anti' mega church, because they only hear what the churches tell them and the churches aren't telling the right stuff.

I have never had the priviledge of visiting a mega church, my experience comes only from people I have met ad they all travel a long way to get to one. These people have no relationships with anyone in the churches they attend.

I guess I'm guilty of stereotyping based on the few people I have met for which I apologise.

We need to hear something from the megachurches about the spiritual growth and relationships of their members rather than how great their worship teams are and how awesome their pastors are.

As always, communication is the key!

[Peter P]

Great point Pat.

Any church which doesn't focus on relationship with Christ AND each other makes me sad!

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

Again, great dialogue. I appreciate your honesty Peter. Thank you.

Part of my own story is that what attracts me to larger churches is the health of many of the relationships I see in them. It would be so great if you could visit some bigger churches, meet with their leadership teams and watch how their peeps interact. It's actually quite refreshing.

[Peter P]

That was something I wanted to ask but I don't want to be the guy who is 'attacking' mega churches because that is really not my desire.

The question I have is, the people you know in mega churches - are they all in or directly connected to the leadership team? Or do you know any of the congregation?

[Marc - Ottawa]

Size is not the real issue!

Peter with the early apostles had a mega church plant handed to them to serve in just one day! (Act 2)

What "Church" did for the next 300 years is the significant issue:

1. There was no emphasis on holy buildings, a special class of holy priests, special holy days etc.

2. They focused on the same shared-life and practices as Jesus taught, by eating together, playing together, praying together in simple, biblical, small groups (from house to house!)

3a. No force submission, top-heavy authority structures and hierarchal relationships amongst them. (Matthew 20:20-27, 23:11; Mark 10:35-44; Lk. 22:26-27)

3b. Decisions were made predominantly by consensus! (Acts 15:22, 25; 6:1-5) All members would agree before moving forward on any decision. (...Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided)

4. They practiced and taught the word and apostles' creed not their own dogma!

5. They lived out Love. As citizens of the Kingdom of God often in the midst of a hostile and antagonistic "foreign" domain. They lived, loved and died holy and passionately! They represented the King!

Marc
http://mogulus.com/just1church
http://just1church.wordpress.com

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

You've hit a passion point for me too, Peter, so sorry if I'm getting a bit excited about all this.

I know both "followers" and "leaders". Naturally, they interact with me as a church leader, but I think their experience has been in many cases authentic, real and engaging.

[Peter P]

I forgot to say earlier that I don't see what Bill Hybels said as any kind of failure, it's simply great leadership.

To have ignored what they had discovered and continued on their same path would have been failure.

I'm really interested to see what changes they make and how it all works out!

[Nick Blevins]

My experience in small churches and with megachurches has been that authentic community has been greater in the large churches. The small churches had people knowing more people, and being known by more people, but not to the level of authenticity and depth that small groups in the megachurches had. My experience is very limited though.

I think sometimes people mistakenly believe that community is - knowing the pastor & knowing (and being known by) everyone in the church. I think real community is knowing a group of people (maybe 10-20) REALLY well, to the point where you really do life with them.

I grew up in a church of 300-400 and most people in my home church would have a hard time in a megachurch, simply because they couldn't have dinner with the pastor and wouldn't know, and be known, by everyone. I think there's a lot of ego built into that line of thinking though.

On the flip side, there are definitely megachurches (and all types of churches) that are "converting" plenty but "growing" few.

[Peter P]

Thanks Carey,

I guess the answer here is that the size of a church is not important, it's the message they teach, the relationships that they foster and the way they take Christ's love to the world which are important!

[Matt Brough]

The original comment from Reggie Joiner kind of worried me as a pastor of a small Church plant, but I think he was trying to encourage mega-church leaders by telling them that the mega-church "backlash" is not on the radar for non-church goers, and those are the people who mega-churches are trying to reach.

I'm finding that a lot of people who are coming to our church for the first time are "church people", but haven't been connected with a church in many years. I wonder if Joiner means them too? What about people who have left the Church and are seeking a way to come back home? Many of them ended up leaving the Church, I believe, because of a lack of real relationships where faith and life are truly shared, and a lack of opportunities for service. Regardless of the size Churches need to disciple people in these areas.

In the end though, I really believe that people will go to Churches to which they are invited (usually be someone they know), and they will stay in Churches in which they are discipled and given the opportunity to serve in meaningful ways.

"Size matters not" - Yoda

[Matt Brough]

I actually do think that the size of a church matters (contrary to Yoda), but only in the approach that they take. They still all need to pay attention to invitation, discipleship and service. That will look different for a congregation of 50 vs. a congregation of 5000, but they both need to do them and be intentional about it. In both places there are real temptations to lose intentionality. In the Mega-Church, it might be tempting to rely on the awesome production of the weekend celebration and the great preaching. In the small church it is tempting to just rely on the fact that everyone knows everyone and so community seems strong, even though it may not be, or it may not be centred on Christ, but on existing family relationships or friendships. Both churches have obstacles to overcome.

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

This has been (and is) a great discussion. It's been helpful and enlightening talking about all the responses to large v. small church.

Another way of framing this is to ask this question: is there movement?

Regardless of size, churches that help people grow, develop and move in their relationship with Christ are winning. And that happens when 10 are gathered or when 10,000 are.

The other dilemma is that when a church begins to facilitate spiritual growth, it will generally grow. Small churches that are effective don't stay small for long. Either they multiply, grow larger or both. Life change is infectious.

[Marc - Ottawa]

I said earlier that size does not matter! Let me qualify:

I feel God's heart has always been to win the heart of every man, woman, boy, girl! (The earth is the field and the church is the perl of great price). He paid the price for the **whole earth**.

So numbers do matter to God. The point is, people are more important to god than the systems we conjure up to "containerize" them.

The "systems" we come up with must be scripturally based rather than traditions of men.

I would recommend reading (http://tr.im/egbc) "Reimagining Church" and "Pagan Christianity", both by FrankViola

[Chad]

Just a couple thoughts to add to the discussion. I want speak into the small vs. large. Carey, I love what you said last about needing movement. That is spot on!

A thought or two about not resolving the tension:

This is something that I have struggled with for a while. Here is a glimpse from my perspective. In working with teens I have noticed students have been completely unimpressed by scripture. Many of them tell me they have heard it all before – honestly because they have. Don't you just love when teens say that. However many times it seems as if they truly can break down the story word for word, give me all the application points, and even match it to illustration they heard. OK maybe not all that but it often seems that way. So they get bored going to church and hearing the same things, the same scripture over and over again because they believe they have already been told all it means (application.) So what more can you learn unless you change the whole interpretation which I have always thought was a valid observation.

To be fair I would say that it's not just students who struggle, but I see it so prevalent among adults as well - an overall lack of interest and captivation. It all seems to be lacking.

Of course I am sure there are several people who can attribute it to this or that but here is at least one observation that I am wading through.

I think not resolving the tension allows some mystery back into the church. And hopefully in time it opens the church to allow God to Capture the Imagination of the people - which is part of what I believe is missing in many of our church environments.

It's like reading a book vs. going to a movie. I hate reading a book after I watch a movie - because now I have a fixed picture of Harry Potter and the whole scene. Hollywood has some great effects but nothing compares to the imagination. I find it so much more fulfilling to engage in a story reading between the lines of the pages and being caught up in lives of the characters...letting my imagination sweep me away to another place and time!

All this, and though I do read, I wouldn't consider myself a reader. I just love it when my mind and heart – my Imagination is Captured!

I think the fear I've heard most often is that we leave the individual or family to now wrestle with this tension. "What if" they come out with a different conclusion or idea from what we were trying to communicate in the first place. Or what if their conclusion is total off base and wrong! So in order to make sure that doesn’t happen we HAVE to tell them , right?

I've had many conversations and debates with some of my closest friends about this. My thoughts have come to this - if I believe the Holy Spirit resides in us to bring us to overflowing with Christ and if I truly believe that He has our best intentions and knows us better than we know ourselves -

Then I personally think that I have to trust that as people wrestle and struggle through the difficult that God will be their guide and will do His work in them. Now this causes me to re-examine my role as a leader. I'm still working on it but here is a quick overview - to equip people with tools and relationships that will encourage questions and healthy discussions about life and faith. That’s pretty close.

I'm still in process with much of this but I thought I would share.

As for the significant aspect - I still need to chew on it but it is right in line with some other discussions we have been having over a book called "Do Hard Things" by Alex and Brett Harris. Some great things to chew on.

Thanks so much!

[Carey Nieuwhof (Connexus Community Church)]

Hey Chad...great to hear from you. Thanks for raising some great questions. I heard the question earlier in the thread so I'm glad we can address it.

I wonder if there are two kinds of wrestling - wrestling with meaning, or wrestling with application. Often, I think we're best to help point toward meaning, but leave people to "finish" application at home. The hard part of the Gospel is not always understanding it, it's application. I would love to create a culture at Connexus where people deeply wrestle with application. I know in my own walk, that's caused me a ton of wrestling.

I think sometimes wrestling with meaning is good, but at the end of the day, it's not about what we think, it's about how we apply what we know. That's what advances the Kingdom.

Does that help in any way? What do others think?

[Laurie]

I spent my familie's formative years in a small church (40-50) with a great evangelical pastor. I did not know until later, the heat he took for me because my ideas were not conforming. When a parish is small it's hard to hide or even sit in a different pew!However he had the time to really share his own personal stories and help me discover discipline and devotion. My thinking these days is that God is concerned with calling people back with wounded hearts, many of whom live busy, isolated lives. We all search for meaning and connection. God is all of that. I find strategizing really exasperating. I have found kingdom- building happens in the everyday effort to connect and care for my neighbour.